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Kalman@AcademiaExchange.net
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:19:50 -0600
From: Eliezer Segal <elsegal@ucalgary.ca>
Reply-To: elsegal@ucalgary.ca
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To: Kalman <Kalman@AcademiaExchange.net>
Subject: Re: On the enhancements of 2nd version of
translation
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Kalman,
I have inserted my remarks in
the appropriate places after your own comments below.
[Placed in yellow text -Kalman]
.....................................................
Eliezer
Kalman wrote:
> Dear Professor Eliezer
Segal,
> The 2nd version of your
translation is a considerable enhancement due to the
additional biblical references and its "smooth"
integration with the existing Hebrew text.
> There are however certain
perhaps minor issues and/or corrections that I would take
the liberty to bring to your attention for further
scrutiny and review:
> A. In the 1st version, in
line 4 (Section-2) the interjection [sic!] in
reference to the expression "fortunate hour" of death
appears to denote bewilderment for the choosing of these
words and thus perhaps some sarcasm. In your 2nd version,
you beautifully identified perhaps the correct meaning of
those words be noting "apprarently in the sense of: 'at a
ripe old age'". Because of this explanation, I believe
that the interjection [sic!] needs to be
eliminated altogether (and I did so).
It is a subjective decision. I
have no problem with removing the "sic!"
> B. The question mark for
Nagy Karoli [?] (see line 7) no longer is needed
as with absolute certainty I can tell you that the town
Carei (that I have referenced in the 1st version of your
translation, see Section-2, Line 6) in Hungarian is
called Nagykaroly (see, for instance,
http://www.geocities.com/zaszlok/english/ro-carei.html or
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ro-carei.html
)
> Because of this certitude,
I changed from the 2nd version "Nagy Karoli [?]"
and put simply "Nagykaroly."
Excellent! one more mystery
cleared up!
> C. Your notation that
appeared in your 1st version at line 6
(Section-2)
> "The line is written so
that the initial letters of the words spell out the name
" B E N D I T "]"
> is no longer mentioned in
your 2nd version (your line 7 below). Why is this? (I
left this notation intact from your 1st version and I
will remove it, of course, once you have the opportunity
to review this discrepancy.)
Merely a typo. The acrostic is
still there.
By the way, "Nagykaroly," though
apparently written as two Hebrew words, only counts as
one letter in the acrostic, adding further support to
your identification.
> Also at the end of this
line (#7) you left [?]. Why is this? What else is
questionable?
I had trouble translating the
last word, and rencered "established" from the context.
After further researching, I now translate it as
"nurtured" or "cultivated" (and the question mark can now
be removed).
> D. On the cadence of
"You":
> In your 1st version of
translation, there was a beautiful cadence of sentences
beginning with "You" (see lines 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 of
Section-2) which no longer is preserved in your 2nd
version (see especially the modified line #9). If
anything, the cadence of "You" needs perhaps further
magnified (provided that is not a distortion of the
original) and I took the liberty to do just that as
follows:
> -i) left intact
the 1st version for line 8 (Section-2) i.e., your new
line 9 below, with the exception that I put a comma
after "and", to emphasize better the second "you" from
the line which now reads:
> (8) You helped build the
mikvah [=purification bath] and, you founded
the burial society for the holy people.
> -ii) instead of
"Lovingly you ..." of your line 11 below, I took the
liberty to reverse the order of the words to be "You
lovingly ..."
> -iii) I added a comma
after "and" in line 11 (Section -2)
> With this rearrangement,
the cadence of "You" is now in full force as the lines 7
through 11 all begin with "You".
Very nice. In Hebrew, pronouns
appears as a suffix to the verb (producing a kind of
rhyme). By consistently inserting the "you" in front of
each verb, you have reproduced some of the original
effect.
> E. Problem with your new
line of identification:
> Clearly, we need to have 27
distinct lines, but we have only 26 numbered lines in the
new version hereinbelow. Thanks to the 1st version at
hand, I was able to identify the problem: it is in your
new line 11 below where two distinct lines are being
incorporated:
> >11) Lovingly
you supported the pious ones and the students of
Torah.
> >You taught good
judgment (cf. Psalms 119:65) and you took hold of
God's law.
> and this is easy to see
from your 1st version.
> The second line here needs
to be numbered as 12 and thus all the subsequent lines
need to be changed accordingly. The final line is now 27
and not 26.
You are obviously correct. I was
getting quite pressured and distracted by other matters
by the time I got to that line...
> F. Also in the 2nd sentence
of the composite line 11, I noticed that you changed in
your 2nd translation from "God's Torah" to "God's law."
Is this latter expression better in terms of the fidelity
of translation or it is better because it is more ever
encompassing? (By the way, Torah is referred on line
above, line 10, with words "students of
Torah.")
Actually, I prefer "Torah."
There is a convention among Christians to equate Torah
with Law (which they contrast with Spirit). I normally
try to avoid that policy, but this time in my hurry, I
let my guard down.
> G. 1st version VS.
2nd version of translation for line 14:
> In the 1st version of the
translation we have:
> "Infants alongside
grey-haired men were burned in oppressive
fire."
> In the 2nd version of the
translation we have:
> "the suckling also
with the man of gray hairs" [Deuteronomy
32:25] were burned in oppressive fire.
> Clearly the 2nd version
carries more clout as it carries a direct biblical
quotation and thus it represents a considerable
enhancement over the first one. And yet the first
translation is somewhat nicer! The world "also" does not
appear to fit in. Also the plural "hairs" does not appear
right. Can we make a compromise of some sort perhaps as
follows:
> The sucklings with
men of gray hair [Deuteronomy 32:25]
were burned in oppressive fire. (perhaps with the
omission of the quotation marks if that is the "price"
to be paid!)
> or such thing is not
possible because of the direct quotation involved? (Also
do you have a preference for the English usage between
"gray" and "grey"?)
Sounds fine to me. On the
"grey/gray" question I have no strong feelings. I am
after all a wishy-washy
Canadian...
> Finally, with respect to
the line 12 that had given you such a hard time in
deciphering its meaning, it is possible that it was not
repainted properly. You see, in May of this year when I
visited the Jewish Cemetery from Timisoara, Romania where
Bendit Guutmann's grave resides, you could not see
anything on the stone but only feel the engraving. The
keeper of the cemetery which, like myself, does not know
Hebrew repainted with black paint the engraving but it is
quite possible that he may have left out something and
that "something" may very well be the cause of all these
difficulties. In November-December of this year when I
plan to go back to Romania, perhaps I need to go back
there to inspect more attentively the stone and to see
that no engraving was left unpainted.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> With enormous appreciation
for your time and gratitude for your remarkable work done
with this intriguing translation.
> Kalman
> PS-1. In your view and that
of your esteemed wife, is it common to see a gravestone
of an Orthodox Jew, as the one of my grandfather
Guttmann, where no mention or reference to his mother is
given? After all, the Jewishness, as I understand it from
the Jewish laws, is provided through the mother's
lineage. To acknowledge the father but not the mother, is
this not peculiar to say the very least?
It is the normal practice to
identify Jewish men and women by the father's name. The
most common exceptions (I'm not certain why) are: in the
prayers for the sick; and among Hassidim.
> PS-2. With respect to name
of "Golda Sobel", my mother and I do not have a clue! The
first name of my grandfather's wife was Regina, and I am
wondering what will be the Hebrew translation or the
equivalent for Regina.
The Hebrew equivalent of Regina
would be Malka [=queen]. I should note, however,
that among Hungarians (as I am aware from my wife's
family) there is often no connection between a person's
Jewish and Hungarian names.
At any rate, the link to Golda
Sobel is not explained, and might be clarified when I
figure out the enigmatic abbreviation that precedes the
name.
Prof. Segal's
Notification of a Correction that was necessary to be
made
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Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:38:55 -0600
Subject: Correction
From: Eliezer Segal <elsegal@ucalgary.ca>
To: Kalman <Kalman@academiaexchange.net>
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I was just browsing through a
book of Polish Jewish gravestones and noted that the
abbreviation that I had deciphered as "in a fortunate
hour / ripe old age" appears in unabbreviated form in one
of the photographs there as "with a good name" (i.e.,
reputation). I presume that that was the intention in our
text as well, and should be corrected
accordingly.
Eliezer
,
